I don't use TikTok, I think everyone that cares about free speech should boycott the platform. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the PRC is intentionally promoting Woke ideology through TikTok terms of service because they know it weakens liberal democracies.
This would be a great conversation to have with Tristan Harris, I do understand and appreciate the intent; but it sort of depends which evil you think is greater: The messages spread on viral social media platforms like TikTok, or the platforms themselves. I don't have the answer, I just know that I've basically quit Facebook due to too many stupid arguments; the platforms themselves just don't lend themselves to in depth discussion of complicated issues.
Anyway, love the format that you're doing on YT, that does seem inherently different to me than FB and Twitter, at least.
Imo you are correct in a sort of roundabout way. I got TikTok quite recently (my younger brother had been nagging me to get it for almost a year).
The Algorithm is very clever, it figures out what content you like (through your engagement i.e likes, favourites, watch time). It then uses this data to recommend you content that users with similar interests like which creates huge echo chambers. Once the user is in one of these echo chambers the algorithm then seems to slowly start recommending more extreme content which is purposefully divisive and is designed to polarise people.
On TikTok you could upload the same video and receive completely different comment sections depending on what group of people it is recommended it to. The best example I saw was Josh Hawley questioning an extremely woke law professor (Khaira Bridges), one video was full of comments praising the professor while the other was full of comments praising Hawley.
TL;DR: TikTok creates huge echo chambers which recommend more and more extreme content which massively polarises people. Therefore you are correct that TikTok is promoting woke ideology and that it polarises and divides people thus weakening western countries.
You have described the very reason why people should not use TikTok. China is causing division as well as current administration. Trump tried to ban TikTok.
The Chinese--no matter what governing entity it is at any moment in time--always play the long game. They own technology now and they will use every means possible to own us, to demoralize us, to destroy our ability to educate children to think and discern.
No interest whatsoever in the TikTok platform, so am unable to weigh in, other than keep posting since they are not yet threatening to deplatform you, just removing certain posts. All your work is of value, so all those not removed are of some worth.
Tik tok is designed for very different purposes than philosophical debate.The last thing they want its users to do is employ any residual capacity for reason they haven't yet destroyed. And yes, there is something to Musk's remarks about the platform's effects on social cohesion.
No person or organization that truly believes in freedom of expression and conscience should use TikTok for any purpose. Eventually it will get an accurate reputation as fostering suppression and censorship of decent opinion and post-puberty intelligent people will ignore it.
I agree with everything that you and the bloggers say about Tik Tok. (I use neither that platform nor any other that's included in "social media.") My comment, however, is about something in the content of that video.
The trans movement is not rooted in misogyny, although it clearly has a negative impact on women. But that's not its only or even its primary negative impact. Like other movements that wokism has absorbed, this one is deeply rooted in a rebellion against reason and, by extension, against science, the Enlightenment and Western civilization itself. Wokers, including not only trans activists but also ideological feminists, attack reason as a manifestation of "male privilege" and "patriarchy." Their rhetoric is therefore at least as deeply rooted in misandry as in misogyny (more so in my opinion). The results for men of this attack on reason are not the same as those for women, but they're at least as disastrous for both men and society as a whole. How are men, let alone boys, to establish any healthy collective identity if they are relentlessly and implacably shamed as the ultimate source of all evil? And how can any civilization at all endure if its reliance on reason itself (which no scientist would ignore in women) is equated with Original Sin?
How they censor and how they're organised will help you decide.
I didn't see a description of the censoring mechanism in the other comments. It may include some combination of:
1. User feedback
2. Algorithmic censoring which, of itself, may be complex
3. Human censorship against a system, with protected categories and the like
4. Party "active measures" campaigns
Tik-Tok may also have a multiple audience model. That could mean that some of the above might differ between audiences.
Whether they have a per country censorship system, or a centralised mechanism, is also important.
I presume there are people out there who have insights. They may be available to help. There are also insights available for other platforms which may be of use.
(The human moderators may operate in an unpleasant workplace and not be able to do a great job.)
I believe that TikTok is a cancer that will aid the CCP in taking the place of the United States as the worlds leader. The government isn’t going to shut it down so Americans need to stay far away from the app.
Until Americans take matters into their own hands and quit expecting the government and politicians to keep the citizens safe, our path is heading to a dark place.
We need to return to in person interactions because that is how humans are wired to co-exist. Living life by watching videos of other peoples lives contributes to anxiety, depression and self confidence. Kids of all ages need in person interaction to fulfill their needs and to become contributing members of society.
Do a bit of research into where your ideal audience hang out. I’m thinking it’s not Tik Tok. If it does include that platform, you need to know exactly what “stage of the SJ journey” they’re on and tailor content that just gives them enough to move along the path.
I have a feeling the clip in question triggered too many people and they probably reported it and the algorithm removed it. This tells you the message from the video was too much too soon for the people there.
The content clips need to meet people where they’re at so they can move in closer to and feel “safe” to be curious.
As much as I hate pandering, I do think the long game requires a strategy that doesn’t create so much cognitive dissonance.
I personally love that clip but that’s because it preaches to the choir. Too much content like that and it will push people away from the movement.
What is your ultimate goal with all this? You want more people to see the value in open discourse, I think.
Just some thoughts since this is essentially a marketing strategy you’re building. How do people on the “outside” move closer to the inside of this “club”?
Maz, your comments are nearly a transcript of our discussions on this topic! You really understand the situation.
Basically, our intended audience is people who are willing to think, converse, respect diversity of viewpoints, engage civilly. Some people don't yet know they are willing to do these things (or they mistakenly think they are already doing them). But like a bee gravitates toward a flower perhaps without understanding why, we think people who crave real discourse will gravitate toward the content. We don't want to preach to the choir, but we do want the insights of all the fine folks like you who understand what we're doing. And the choir has an amplifying effect...we love the choir!
While TikTok doesn't seem to be a fit for long-form discussion, we have nearly 70,000 followers there. It's incredible. I think many people crave authenticity and honest speech because it's so scarce. Even TikTokkers.
I think it's too late for civil engagement. It's time to take the gloves off. Woke ideology promotes misogyny, homophobia, anti-white racism, and increasingly paedophilia. We have to fight it tooth and nail. We have to do all the things to them which they have been doing to us. We have to isolate and expose its proponents, and hound them out of public life. Woke needs to become completely unacceptable.
“Fighting tooth and nail” only entrenches people in their beliefs even more. As much as I want to do that too, we’re better off being more strategic.
We need to empower and embolden the moderates to start speaking up AND we need to lead the woke moderates back to being normal moderates lol.
AND I think it’s also worth trying to speak to the “other side” to equip them with the communication skills and strategies to be less “us verses them”.
In your case, for example, how confident are you that fighting tooth and nail will actually help?
I fought tooth and nail with my husband about the gender stuff and all it did was divide us further. Now he refuses to even entertain my thoughts. He writes them off as “right wing talking points”.
We need to just play a little smarter, which is why I mentioned marketing strategy. If you want someone to have both awareness of something they lack AND the desire to get what they lack without making them feel stupid for having the lack, we need to create a new “enemy”.
I’m in the fitness industry, and what they often appeal to is the big bad industry having alternative motives and how “everything you’ve been told is wrong” or “they’re using you as a pawn”. I’m not saying use these, but “the enemy” has to feel separate from the person for them to feel safe to be curious.
But when they’re convinced that the western values are equal to white supremacy, it’s a bit of a problem for helping them back in the fold of western values. We need to start by helping them to feel less threatened by alternative ideas. But in marketing, then often lead you in by offering what you think you want, then giving you what you didn’t know you needed!!
Can we really deconstruct their worldview and replace it with what they hate? They’ll see that as more attempts to colonize.
I’m someone who believes in God, and my worldview is very connected to the idea of a transcendent purpose for things and that human suffering has purpose. When I talk to people who want to fight me tooth and nail that the God I believe in is a teapot flying in space, it’s insulting and does nothing to help me see their perspective. And vice versa… I would never try to convince someone to believe in God by force.
Anyway, you get the point. I’m with you on your level of frustration and urgency to get this infection under control asap, but I really don’t want to make it worse.
I'm not sure Peter Boghossian has ever worn the gloves!
I understand your sentiment. At the same time, if we want a culture that values civil engagement, we have to stick to it, we have to show the value of civil discourse. To me, the most dangerous aspect of wokism is speech regulation (by extension, cognitive regulation). As more people recognize that this totalitarianism is unacceptable for a democratic society, wokism will take its proper place as a fundamentalist religion instead of a dominant cultural narrative.
Totally agree, Gina. We have to lead by example. I have to remember that, too. It’s quite the situation when I get triggered by people getting triggered 😆
I don't use TikTok, I think everyone that cares about free speech should boycott the platform. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the PRC is intentionally promoting Woke ideology through TikTok terms of service because they know it weakens liberal democracies.
TikTok is key to reach a younger demographic.
This would be a great conversation to have with Tristan Harris, I do understand and appreciate the intent; but it sort of depends which evil you think is greater: The messages spread on viral social media platforms like TikTok, or the platforms themselves. I don't have the answer, I just know that I've basically quit Facebook due to too many stupid arguments; the platforms themselves just don't lend themselves to in depth discussion of complicated issues.
Anyway, love the format that you're doing on YT, that does seem inherently different to me than FB and Twitter, at least.
Imo you are correct in a sort of roundabout way. I got TikTok quite recently (my younger brother had been nagging me to get it for almost a year).
The Algorithm is very clever, it figures out what content you like (through your engagement i.e likes, favourites, watch time). It then uses this data to recommend you content that users with similar interests like which creates huge echo chambers. Once the user is in one of these echo chambers the algorithm then seems to slowly start recommending more extreme content which is purposefully divisive and is designed to polarise people.
On TikTok you could upload the same video and receive completely different comment sections depending on what group of people it is recommended it to. The best example I saw was Josh Hawley questioning an extremely woke law professor (Khaira Bridges), one video was full of comments praising the professor while the other was full of comments praising Hawley.
TL;DR: TikTok creates huge echo chambers which recommend more and more extreme content which massively polarises people. Therefore you are correct that TikTok is promoting woke ideology and that it polarises and divides people thus weakening western countries.
You have described the very reason why people should not use TikTok. China is causing division as well as current administration. Trump tried to ban TikTok.
Very interesting, Ashley.
Totally agree. Will never use TikTok. It’s unsafe and parents should never allow their children to use this platform.
The Chinese--no matter what governing entity it is at any moment in time--always play the long game. They own technology now and they will use every means possible to own us, to demoralize us, to destroy our ability to educate children to think and discern.
And both parties have sold us out as a country.
Continue to post. Any less is to concede to wokism.
No interest whatsoever in the TikTok platform, so am unable to weigh in, other than keep posting since they are not yet threatening to deplatform you, just removing certain posts. All your work is of value, so all those not removed are of some worth.
Continue to post entire content and report as above when censored.
Tik tok is designed for very different purposes than philosophical debate.The last thing they want its users to do is employ any residual capacity for reason they haven't yet destroyed. And yes, there is something to Musk's remarks about the platform's effects on social cohesion.
JBP has a rule about this. Do what is meaningful, not expedient!
No person or organization that truly believes in freedom of expression and conscience should use TikTok for any purpose. Eventually it will get an accurate reputation as fostering suppression and censorship of decent opinion and post-puberty intelligent people will ignore it.
Continue to post as you wish. You will have my support for living your values.
Don’t censor yourself. If you get kicked off for telling the truth, consider it a badge of honor.
I agree with everything that you and the bloggers say about Tik Tok. (I use neither that platform nor any other that's included in "social media.") My comment, however, is about something in the content of that video.
The trans movement is not rooted in misogyny, although it clearly has a negative impact on women. But that's not its only or even its primary negative impact. Like other movements that wokism has absorbed, this one is deeply rooted in a rebellion against reason and, by extension, against science, the Enlightenment and Western civilization itself. Wokers, including not only trans activists but also ideological feminists, attack reason as a manifestation of "male privilege" and "patriarchy." Their rhetoric is therefore at least as deeply rooted in misandry as in misogyny (more so in my opinion). The results for men of this attack on reason are not the same as those for women, but they're at least as disastrous for both men and society as a whole. How are men, let alone boys, to establish any healthy collective identity if they are relentlessly and implacably shamed as the ultimate source of all evil? And how can any civilization at all endure if its reliance on reason itself (which no scientist would ignore in women) is equated with Original Sin?
I agree that men are under relentless attack and society suffers for it.
I can't offer advice. (it's not even worth two cents.) But I can keep supporting you in whatever choices you make. They've worked well so far.
I'm not familiar with Tik Tok.
How they censor and how they're organised will help you decide.
I didn't see a description of the censoring mechanism in the other comments. It may include some combination of:
1. User feedback
2. Algorithmic censoring which, of itself, may be complex
3. Human censorship against a system, with protected categories and the like
4. Party "active measures" campaigns
Tik-Tok may also have a multiple audience model. That could mean that some of the above might differ between audiences.
Whether they have a per country censorship system, or a centralised mechanism, is also important.
I presume there are people out there who have insights. They may be available to help. There are also insights available for other platforms which may be of use.
(The human moderators may operate in an unpleasant workplace and not be able to do a great job.)
Chinese companies should not have any rights in the west. They are CCP controlled and should not be allowed to do business in a free society
I believe that TikTok is a cancer that will aid the CCP in taking the place of the United States as the worlds leader. The government isn’t going to shut it down so Americans need to stay far away from the app.
Until Americans take matters into their own hands and quit expecting the government and politicians to keep the citizens safe, our path is heading to a dark place.
We need to return to in person interactions because that is how humans are wired to co-exist. Living life by watching videos of other peoples lives contributes to anxiety, depression and self confidence. Kids of all ages need in person interaction to fulfill their needs and to become contributing members of society.
Do a bit of research into where your ideal audience hang out. I’m thinking it’s not Tik Tok. If it does include that platform, you need to know exactly what “stage of the SJ journey” they’re on and tailor content that just gives them enough to move along the path.
I have a feeling the clip in question triggered too many people and they probably reported it and the algorithm removed it. This tells you the message from the video was too much too soon for the people there.
The content clips need to meet people where they’re at so they can move in closer to and feel “safe” to be curious.
As much as I hate pandering, I do think the long game requires a strategy that doesn’t create so much cognitive dissonance.
I personally love that clip but that’s because it preaches to the choir. Too much content like that and it will push people away from the movement.
What is your ultimate goal with all this? You want more people to see the value in open discourse, I think.
Just some thoughts since this is essentially a marketing strategy you’re building. How do people on the “outside” move closer to the inside of this “club”?
Maz, your comments are nearly a transcript of our discussions on this topic! You really understand the situation.
Basically, our intended audience is people who are willing to think, converse, respect diversity of viewpoints, engage civilly. Some people don't yet know they are willing to do these things (or they mistakenly think they are already doing them). But like a bee gravitates toward a flower perhaps without understanding why, we think people who crave real discourse will gravitate toward the content. We don't want to preach to the choir, but we do want the insights of all the fine folks like you who understand what we're doing. And the choir has an amplifying effect...we love the choir!
While TikTok doesn't seem to be a fit for long-form discussion, we have nearly 70,000 followers there. It's incredible. I think many people crave authenticity and honest speech because it's so scarce. Even TikTokkers.
THANK YOU Maz.
I think it's too late for civil engagement. It's time to take the gloves off. Woke ideology promotes misogyny, homophobia, anti-white racism, and increasingly paedophilia. We have to fight it tooth and nail. We have to do all the things to them which they have been doing to us. We have to isolate and expose its proponents, and hound them out of public life. Woke needs to become completely unacceptable.
“Fighting tooth and nail” only entrenches people in their beliefs even more. As much as I want to do that too, we’re better off being more strategic.
We need to empower and embolden the moderates to start speaking up AND we need to lead the woke moderates back to being normal moderates lol.
AND I think it’s also worth trying to speak to the “other side” to equip them with the communication skills and strategies to be less “us verses them”.
In your case, for example, how confident are you that fighting tooth and nail will actually help?
I fought tooth and nail with my husband about the gender stuff and all it did was divide us further. Now he refuses to even entertain my thoughts. He writes them off as “right wing talking points”.
We need to just play a little smarter, which is why I mentioned marketing strategy. If you want someone to have both awareness of something they lack AND the desire to get what they lack without making them feel stupid for having the lack, we need to create a new “enemy”.
I’m in the fitness industry, and what they often appeal to is the big bad industry having alternative motives and how “everything you’ve been told is wrong” or “they’re using you as a pawn”. I’m not saying use these, but “the enemy” has to feel separate from the person for them to feel safe to be curious.
But when they’re convinced that the western values are equal to white supremacy, it’s a bit of a problem for helping them back in the fold of western values. We need to start by helping them to feel less threatened by alternative ideas. But in marketing, then often lead you in by offering what you think you want, then giving you what you didn’t know you needed!!
Can we really deconstruct their worldview and replace it with what they hate? They’ll see that as more attempts to colonize.
I’m someone who believes in God, and my worldview is very connected to the idea of a transcendent purpose for things and that human suffering has purpose. When I talk to people who want to fight me tooth and nail that the God I believe in is a teapot flying in space, it’s insulting and does nothing to help me see their perspective. And vice versa… I would never try to convince someone to believe in God by force.
Anyway, you get the point. I’m with you on your level of frustration and urgency to get this infection under control asap, but I really don’t want to make it worse.
I'm not sure Peter Boghossian has ever worn the gloves!
I understand your sentiment. At the same time, if we want a culture that values civil engagement, we have to stick to it, we have to show the value of civil discourse. To me, the most dangerous aspect of wokism is speech regulation (by extension, cognitive regulation). As more people recognize that this totalitarianism is unacceptable for a democratic society, wokism will take its proper place as a fundamentalist religion instead of a dominant cultural narrative.
Totally agree, Gina. We have to lead by example. I have to remember that, too. It’s quite the situation when I get triggered by people getting triggered 😆