I loved your introduction to the interview with Elzabeth Rata and am looking forward to viewing the program.
In over five decades of involvement with higher learning, I’ve come to appreciate the importance of balance. Learning “what’s so?” (the bailiwick of science) and “so what?” (inviting commentary from a plethora of perspectives and traditions) are both essential. However, it seems to me that answering the first question, is a prerequisite for engaging the second, more cosmic and complicated, one. The rush to righteousness of extreme progressives often ignores the first question altogether and attacks those who suggest that contributions to conversations about the second question be supported by evidence as well as reason.
Having been dismissed for cause by Berea College through an administrative process that was far less than i was due and having two able lawyers take my case on a contingency basis, federal court fees have exceeded $65k and the process has taken over 7 years and is still undecided. However, recently, the 6th federal circuit partially reversed a district judge’s previous summary judgment in favor of the college.
Professor-v.-Professor Defamation Suit Can Go Forward, Based on Defendant's Statements to Students
In the Cancelling of the American Mind, Lukianoff & Schlott suggest that the 200 recent Woke-related dismissals reflect a rate about twice as high as the infamous McCarthy purge of “communists” in the 1950’s. Nick Wolfinger has collected a score of these narratives in an anthology to be published soon. My story will be among them.
Thank you for keeping this critical conversation alive.
"Having been dismissed for cause by Berea College through an administrative process that was far less than i was due and having two able lawyers take my case on a contingency basis, federal court fees have exceeded $65k and the process has taken over 7 years and is still undecided. However, recently, the 6th federal circuit partially reversed a district judge’s previous summary judgment in favor of the college."
Here is a note I wrote to Elizabeth after listening (twice!) to her conversation with Pete:
Dear Elizabeth:
I listened to your conversation with Pete Boghossian and it was a breath of fresh air.
I am a retiree and I returned to university a year ago as a student (focusing on history and philosophy). Previously, I earned an undergraduate degree in the early 80s (business school) and then a law degree. The world of academia today seems, in many respects, unrecognizable relative to what I experienced when I was a student years ago.
I recently read a provocative 2022 essay from Quillette entitled “Sex and the Academy”by Cory Clark and Bo Winegard. The essential thesis is there are average sex differences (a bimodal distribution curve), rooted in part in evolutionary biology, which are manifested in different objectives between male and female academics. For example, females relative to males tend to value concerns for student emotional wellbeing over an open conflict of ideas. These differences may be at the root of many of the changes we are seeing in academia as academia becomes more feminized (for example, there are now about 20,000 more PhDs awarded to females than to males each year in the USA). It is a good thing females now have equal access to academia but this has led to changes in much of the character of academia (many of which are features you criticize).
I’m wondering if you have looked at academia from this perspective?
Thank you for taking the time to talk with Pete. I’ve listened to your conversation with him twice!
I don't believe she should refer to Universities as "elite" as that term that has a very negative connotation right now and frankly, the universities don't deserve that title at least not as of today. I would say Institutions of Higher Learning.
Institutions of higher learning which is I think an apt description of what they are supposed to be. In essence each successive grade is a higher level of learning so it's logical that college is higher learning in comparison to high school and it's not even the highest level. For the highest you then need graduate school.
In the past the term "Elite" did not carry the same level of negativity it does today. Some were still jealous of the "elite" class but still many also respected them.
Higher education should be for, if not “the elite,” the exceptional. The idea that everyone can benefit from higher education leads, in part, to the dumbing down of standards of excellence.
Exactly! The universities should be for the few who are the most gifted and who excel academically. There's no way to significantly increase the % of the population that attends colleges without lowering standards or either flunking out a lot more students and we have seen which way the system goes in regards to that. They lower requirements and standards not only to keep more student's coming thru the system but so as to not upset or offended "under represented groups". Because certain ethnicities aren't graduating from colleges in equal numbers as other ethnicities, we have to contend with college graduates who know and can do less than graduates from 20 years ago. That's not only stupid but high dangerous.
Our society does not work unless we have at least 3 classes, where only a few go thru the system of higher learning. We need people to choose trade schools and community colleges to fulfill roles that are currently short of labor like plumbing, electrical and construction. If a society is primarily all college graduates that society will fall apart b/c all will feel their above jobs that still need to be filled like in retail, food & beverage and so on. A society where all are literally equal in terms of what they have and know, can't survive. We do want all to be treated equally but don't expect all to produce the same outcome. Back in my grand parents day a janitorial job was respectable. Today too much of society looks down on these still needed jobs.
The people who were parents of teens in the 80's and 90s are also to blame because they made kills believe they would be losers if they didn't go to college. I experienced that 1st hand from 2 parents neither of home were college graduates but who both insisted I had to go to college or else I'd lead a poor/bad life. Turns out they were very wrong. I have no college time (I do have some community college classes) and I am able to provide for a stay at home wife plus 2 kids and we're not living in a poor place or home. We're considered upper middle class and I am one of the most sought after people in the industry I work in because I busted my ass to get to where I am. College graduates in my field can't keep up with the work I do. Granted they know more than I about classical literature but that's not important to our line of work.
Parents today are still pushing kids to go to college when they shouldn't be. This is a change that will require parents to change how they treat education and their kids.
Boggles the MF mind that it is now controversial among certain political classes to teach children critical thinking, empiricism, and truth value; and NOT to essentially brainwash them.
And every day, and almost every minute of every day, they take for granted what that type of scientific thinking produced, which they in their narcissism and solipsism enjoy. Internet. Automobiles. Air Travel. Computers. Smartphones. Coffee makers. All byproducts their world could never produce. The
Yup, yup. I’ve been screaming about this for nearly a decade. The response: Shoot the messenger. We get the kinds of institutions—universities included—that we deserve. So, here we are…
Right. I think we’re about the same age. Literally decades watching this epistemological shit storm transpire—only to be repeatedly gaslit and scoffed at for catastrophizing or exaggerating. Oh, sure. Free speech. Wisdom of the crowd. Rationalism. Scientific method. Ethics. Universalism. The Orwellian destruction of language and meaning. What could possibly go wrong? Well, you lost a F-ing election over it. I should be basking in the schadenfreude but I was hoping to be wrong.
One must start at the grass-roots level with homeschooling that teaches critical thinking and the 3 Rs, provided exclusively within the private sector, and funded in a completely private and voluntary manner. Ultimately, it requires a complete separation of government and education, and one must inform oneself of the history of that union, and how it started over a century ago. To that end, I recommend "The Underground History of American Education" by John Gatto. Brace yourself as you read it, for it is a very sordid history!
It’s simply not practical for everyone, or even for most, to homeschool. Many parents are simply not competent to teach or, if they are, have other important demands that make full-time homeschooling impractical.
Hooray for compliance! I got my daughter’s middle school into compliance by reading the state laws.
They allowed my daughter to attend GSA club without my approval. Because I said no, my child lied “I don’t feel safe telling my mom” and was allowed to come.
Then, I also found out, anecdotally, that the outgoing principal who approved the GSA Club thought it was Girl Scouts of America.
Finally my child told me “most kids’ parents signed permission slips.”
What did compliance look like the next year? Me proactively telling the GSA Club sponsor not to let my child attend, and the school actually spelling out what the club is in communications—Genders and Sexualities Alliance. Informed Consent!
If you smell something fishy, look for it.
This year, the GSA sponsor is my kid’s teacher. I take the high road and discuss academics with her.
Parents need legal protection to get ahead of this stuff. It’s an abomination. I don’t see it getting better.
My daughter’s friend group — and many families in our community— are affirming parents of ROGD FTM girls.
I loved your introduction to the interview with Elzabeth Rata and am looking forward to viewing the program.
In over five decades of involvement with higher learning, I’ve come to appreciate the importance of balance. Learning “what’s so?” (the bailiwick of science) and “so what?” (inviting commentary from a plethora of perspectives and traditions) are both essential. However, it seems to me that answering the first question, is a prerequisite for engaging the second, more cosmic and complicated, one. The rush to righteousness of extreme progressives often ignores the first question altogether and attacks those who suggest that contributions to conversations about the second question be supported by evidence as well as reason.
Having been dismissed for cause by Berea College through an administrative process that was far less than i was due and having two able lawyers take my case on a contingency basis, federal court fees have exceeded $65k and the process has taken over 7 years and is still undecided. However, recently, the 6th federal circuit partially reversed a district judge’s previous summary judgment in favor of the college.
Professor-v.-Professor Defamation Suit Can Go Forward, Based on Defendant's Statements to Students
In the Cancelling of the American Mind, Lukianoff & Schlott suggest that the 200 recent Woke-related dismissals reflect a rate about twice as high as the infamous McCarthy purge of “communists” in the 1950’s. Nick Wolfinger has collected a score of these narratives in an anthology to be published soon. My story will be among them.
Thank you for keeping this critical conversation alive.
Thank you. I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
I gave a talk at Berea years ago. I was really impressed by the student body—hard working, genuinely thoughtful, and not “classist”.
I think Dr Rata has necessary answers to old problems. And, she’s based!
"Having been dismissed for cause by Berea College through an administrative process that was far less than i was due and having two able lawyers take my case on a contingency basis, federal court fees have exceeded $65k and the process has taken over 7 years and is still undecided. However, recently, the 6th federal circuit partially reversed a district judge’s previous summary judgment in favor of the college."
Very often The Process Is The Punishment
Here is a note I wrote to Elizabeth after listening (twice!) to her conversation with Pete:
Dear Elizabeth:
I listened to your conversation with Pete Boghossian and it was a breath of fresh air.
I am a retiree and I returned to university a year ago as a student (focusing on history and philosophy). Previously, I earned an undergraduate degree in the early 80s (business school) and then a law degree. The world of academia today seems, in many respects, unrecognizable relative to what I experienced when I was a student years ago.
I recently read a provocative 2022 essay from Quillette entitled “Sex and the Academy”by Cory Clark and Bo Winegard. The essential thesis is there are average sex differences (a bimodal distribution curve), rooted in part in evolutionary biology, which are manifested in different objectives between male and female academics. For example, females relative to males tend to value concerns for student emotional wellbeing over an open conflict of ideas. These differences may be at the root of many of the changes we are seeing in academia as academia becomes more feminized (for example, there are now about 20,000 more PhDs awarded to females than to males each year in the USA). It is a good thing females now have equal access to academia but this has led to changes in much of the character of academia (many of which are features you criticize).
I’m wondering if you have looked at academia from this perspective?
Thank you for taking the time to talk with Pete. I’ve listened to your conversation with him twice!
Loren
I don't believe she should refer to Universities as "elite" as that term that has a very negative connotation right now and frankly, the universities don't deserve that title at least not as of today. I would say Institutions of Higher Learning.
What term would you suggest?
Institutions of higher learning which is I think an apt description of what they are supposed to be. In essence each successive grade is a higher level of learning so it's logical that college is higher learning in comparison to high school and it's not even the highest level. For the highest you then need graduate school.
In the past the term "Elite" did not carry the same level of negativity it does today. Some were still jealous of the "elite" class but still many also respected them.
Higher education should be for, if not “the elite,” the exceptional. The idea that everyone can benefit from higher education leads, in part, to the dumbing down of standards of excellence.
Exactly! The universities should be for the few who are the most gifted and who excel academically. There's no way to significantly increase the % of the population that attends colleges without lowering standards or either flunking out a lot more students and we have seen which way the system goes in regards to that. They lower requirements and standards not only to keep more student's coming thru the system but so as to not upset or offended "under represented groups". Because certain ethnicities aren't graduating from colleges in equal numbers as other ethnicities, we have to contend with college graduates who know and can do less than graduates from 20 years ago. That's not only stupid but high dangerous.
Our society does not work unless we have at least 3 classes, where only a few go thru the system of higher learning. We need people to choose trade schools and community colleges to fulfill roles that are currently short of labor like plumbing, electrical and construction. If a society is primarily all college graduates that society will fall apart b/c all will feel their above jobs that still need to be filled like in retail, food & beverage and so on. A society where all are literally equal in terms of what they have and know, can't survive. We do want all to be treated equally but don't expect all to produce the same outcome. Back in my grand parents day a janitorial job was respectable. Today too much of society looks down on these still needed jobs.
The people who were parents of teens in the 80's and 90s are also to blame because they made kills believe they would be losers if they didn't go to college. I experienced that 1st hand from 2 parents neither of home were college graduates but who both insisted I had to go to college or else I'd lead a poor/bad life. Turns out they were very wrong. I have no college time (I do have some community college classes) and I am able to provide for a stay at home wife plus 2 kids and we're not living in a poor place or home. We're considered upper middle class and I am one of the most sought after people in the industry I work in because I busted my ass to get to where I am. College graduates in my field can't keep up with the work I do. Granted they know more than I about classical literature but that's not important to our line of work.
Parents today are still pushing kids to go to college when they shouldn't be. This is a change that will require parents to change how they treat education and their kids.
Boggles the MF mind that it is now controversial among certain political classes to teach children critical thinking, empiricism, and truth value; and NOT to essentially brainwash them.
And every day, and almost every minute of every day, they take for granted what that type of scientific thinking produced, which they in their narcissism and solipsism enjoy. Internet. Automobiles. Air Travel. Computers. Smartphones. Coffee makers. All byproducts their world could never produce. The
hypocrisy and stupidity is just staggering.
Yup, yup. I’ve been screaming about this for nearly a decade. The response: Shoot the messenger. We get the kinds of institutions—universities included—that we deserve. So, here we are…
Right. I think we’re about the same age. Literally decades watching this epistemological shit storm transpire—only to be repeatedly gaslit and scoffed at for catastrophizing or exaggerating. Oh, sure. Free speech. Wisdom of the crowd. Rationalism. Scientific method. Ethics. Universalism. The Orwellian destruction of language and meaning. What could possibly go wrong? Well, you lost a F-ing election over it. I should be basking in the schadenfreude but I was hoping to be wrong.
We sure do love to overcorrect.
Thank you and completely agree. But how do we reverse the equity woke-agenda trend, in schools across-the-board?
It’s on hospice now.
One must start at the grass-roots level with homeschooling that teaches critical thinking and the 3 Rs, provided exclusively within the private sector, and funded in a completely private and voluntary manner. Ultimately, it requires a complete separation of government and education, and one must inform oneself of the history of that union, and how it started over a century ago. To that end, I recommend "The Underground History of American Education" by John Gatto. Brace yourself as you read it, for it is a very sordid history!
It’s simply not practical for everyone, or even for most, to homeschool. Many parents are simply not competent to teach or, if they are, have other important demands that make full-time homeschooling impractical.
IT’S NOT JUST MEDICAL.
Hooray for compliance! I got my daughter’s middle school into compliance by reading the state laws.
They allowed my daughter to attend GSA club without my approval. Because I said no, my child lied “I don’t feel safe telling my mom” and was allowed to come.
Then, I also found out, anecdotally, that the outgoing principal who approved the GSA Club thought it was Girl Scouts of America.
Finally my child told me “most kids’ parents signed permission slips.”
What did compliance look like the next year? Me proactively telling the GSA Club sponsor not to let my child attend, and the school actually spelling out what the club is in communications—Genders and Sexualities Alliance. Informed Consent!
If you smell something fishy, look for it.
This year, the GSA sponsor is my kid’s teacher. I take the high road and discuss academics with her.
Parents need legal protection to get ahead of this stuff. It’s an abomination. I don’t see it getting better.
My daughter’s friend group — and many families in our community— are affirming parents of ROGD FTM girls.
“If you smell something fishy…” there are often fish present.
Thank you!