There are some thoughtful comments here. Thank you. Here’s my controversial take on this:
People are incapable of nuance.
I usually use the pronouns people prefer. This does not mean I think that men are actual women—or that they are entitled to access women-only spaces. It seems, however, that this distinction is largely lost.
I have a few friendlies who are trans, and I always use their preferred pronouns. I look at it as general courtesy. That said, is someone wants to NOT use those pronouns then it is what it is. I’m not bothered either way.
This stance gets me considerable grief from what largely is considered the right. So be it.
And this nuanced take worked fine until the culture wars started. The pushback now comes not from someone saying something like "I am a she not a he" but because of how in your face it's been pushed; a clear bullying by the minority. Instead of being shamed publicly as would have been the case in generations past these people are propped up and praised for it. Our pushing public shaming out of our culture has not made us better at all.
Unfortunately this means some who were never into that push will get caught up and included with the ones who did but we can't not pushback just because a small percentage were never trying to shove this in everyone else's faces.
I worked in retail for over 10 years; it's not hard to distinguish who the real gay/trans people are and who are doing it b/c it's a fad. If a guy has done so good a job that I can't tell he's a he and not a she until they speak then I'm going to say she/her. If they look more like the henchman of a cheesy comic book villain like the Joker then their preferred pronouns are nowhere to be found.
Has anyone here every lived around evangelicals? You act like identity politics people are the only people who demand you validate their knowing through introspection. How about we deal with trans people the way we deal with Southern Baptists - I am not going to overtly piss on your beliefs as long as you can comparmentalize them so they play well with secular society. I am not going to remind you at every turn in all situations that God doesn't exist, that the New Testament isn't history, that you don't indeed have a "personal relationship with Jesus". But I am going to say no when you demand your beliefs get special rights in policy or special validation other beliefs without evidence don't get. I think of using someone's pronouns the way I think about someone asking me to pray for them - don't have to be a dick to people just because I think their beliefs are stupid and don't have evidence. I am working on a piece about this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M3rMRjJmUVJWRxMeHEpjQBqmTp73mVo3XE0uE4hUJxQ/edit?usp=sharing
Wow. Typical Christian hater, will find anyway possible to bring in Christianity no matter what the topic just so the hater can take a stab at the mean old Christians whom.were it not for the atheists would have forced us all to behave morally and respect others.
Thank the non existent creator we dodged that bullet and arrived were we did ey?
Typical Christian woke logic - if I disbelieve an empirical claim, I must hate the people who make it. If I don't validate your feelings in one area it means I hate you. Doesn't this sound familiar? Religious people are fine with woke epistemology, bur only in service of one set of belief without evidence. Disagreement is oppression. Asking for evidence for claims that seek to create policy is oppression. Sound familiar? I'm no Christian hater. Thankfully most of you compartmentalize your beliefs enough do it plays fine with reality. I just feel about Christianity the way both you and I feel about every other religion.
As if conservatives don't do those things even more than the left does, and that is saying something! Spend any time around religious evangelicals or listen to the increasingly dominant religious wing of the GOP and you hear woke epistemology around all these issues. Yeah, I have never seen an anti-woke person argue with emotions, questioning people's motives and repeating slogans. The discourse is completely idiotic on both sides.
I have declined to use "preferred pronouns" since the beginning of all this BS. I call it as I see it. It's not meant to be mean or deliberately cruel. I don't think it is healthy to reinforce peoples' cognitive distortions about their "gender identity"; the whole "non-binary they/them" phenomenon has been particularly irrational. No. Just no.
Pronouns go with sex, not gender. Since a man can only be a woman in language, not reality, going along with the lie that a man can be a woman if he says he is forces me to validate his delusion. I refuse to do this, not even to be polite. The jig is up.
Pretending a man is a woman is dangerous for women. If a man thinks he's a woman, therefore he is 'entitled' to pretend, then he does not understand the fact of pregnancy. He's a man. He's not a woman. Simple.
This sounds like woke logic, while I agree with qualms about using pronouns. Enabling is a form of slavery? Talk about concept creep and hyperbole. This sounds like "speech is violence!". Note how woke ways of thinking aren't leftist at all - they are just attached to any kind of moral certainty driven by moral outrage.
I can't say this with any absolute certainty, but I am pretty sure that I am on the wrong planet. As soon as my cat - LugNut - and I finish the rocket ship 🚀 we are building in our garage ... we're out of here.
My childhood Jim and I were discussing the dearth of kids playing in all the piles of leaves while walking through my neighborhood recently. When we were little boys, our biggest concern was whether or not we should play marbles in the vacant lot with our neighborhood pals, or ride our bikes to our favorite fishing hole.
But nowadays all the kids are all at home on their computers, trying to figure out which of the 3,942 genders they might be. (If my recent affinity for teapots counts ... then make that 3,943).
It's as if the sun started to rise every morning in the West ... and nobody noticed.
Drawing on the great Yiddish tradition of "shm_ing" a word or phrase, when some years ago LinkedIn recommended indicating personal pronouns I added next to my name "pronouns, shmonouns," but after some time, I entered a minimalist phase and now simply give my name.
Great idea! Let's put forth that schmuck, schlemazel, schlemiel (some would go way out there and ad shlong, schtup, a few other really bad Yiddish words, I'll permit) as "pronouns" and ask if anyone knows how to say "pronouns' in Yiddish? BTW, a bagel place just opened in my upstate town and I was quite surprised. I thought the Left had outlawed overtly Yiddish Jewish food, esp, the carb forward kind~
Judging by what I read on Xwitter, there are still many people who deny the biological differences between men & women. This is in the context of arguing about firefighters & the horrific LA fires.
So if people like that won't give up, I think that the pronoun brigade won't either.
The fringe element that is constantly trying to invent new ways to identify themselves,for some sort of personal gain, need to get over themselves and shut up. Making up labels and trying to make everyone else use them is unacceptable. Regarding sex, a human being is male or female, there is no other option. Who you choose to love, how you choose to dress, how you choose to modify your body, or how you choose to "identify", cannot change your gender. I believe that labels are created to try to gain some sort of advantage over others. Regarding race, I do not believe there is any such thing. I think that all humans are the same. The physical traits that are currently used to define "race" do not have any validity. These traits are the result of what I call "geographic evolution". Enough.
Biological truth is evidenced in chromosomal tests. "Experienced something" is in the mind. I know this, as the ex-wife of a man who literally, actually, wrote in school forms, legal documents, that he, the father of my sons, was "mother." He was not the custodial parent, as determined by the Kings County Supreme Court in a divorce case costing me, the mother, $40k. In the 1990s.
There is no "evolving language". There is propaganda.
Evolution as a response to a changing environment. Environment first, then change. What the political Left does is start trying to change language FIRST in an effort to coerce the world to change.
I think a better remedy for “hate speech” (however it is defined) is more (and better) speech. I often simply asked students (or administrators) who sad vile, hateful, or simply ignorant things to “help me understand…” Their responses were usually less inane or offensive. Peter seems to do something like this often during these sessions.
The oxymoronic phrase, “the gender you were born with” reflects a rather profound misunderstanding of the difference between sex (biologically determined) and gender (socially construed).
Here is another question that could have been explored: is punishment ever useful/appropriate/or effective? I think not. Although punishment is often the first choice of those least capable of controlling anyone else’s behavior (let alone their own); it is likely to have serious unintended consequences through collateral damage to social relationships. A case in point:
There are some thoughtful comments here. Thank you. Here’s my controversial take on this:
People are incapable of nuance.
I usually use the pronouns people prefer. This does not mean I think that men are actual women—or that they are entitled to access women-only spaces. It seems, however, that this distinction is largely lost.
I have a few friendlies who are trans, and I always use their preferred pronouns. I look at it as general courtesy. That said, is someone wants to NOT use those pronouns then it is what it is. I’m not bothered either way.
This stance gets me considerable grief from what largely is considered the right. So be it.
And this nuanced take worked fine until the culture wars started. The pushback now comes not from someone saying something like "I am a she not a he" but because of how in your face it's been pushed; a clear bullying by the minority. Instead of being shamed publicly as would have been the case in generations past these people are propped up and praised for it. Our pushing public shaming out of our culture has not made us better at all.
Unfortunately this means some who were never into that push will get caught up and included with the ones who did but we can't not pushback just because a small percentage were never trying to shove this in everyone else's faces.
I worked in retail for over 10 years; it's not hard to distinguish who the real gay/trans people are and who are doing it b/c it's a fad. If a guy has done so good a job that I can't tell he's a he and not a she until they speak then I'm going to say she/her. If they look more like the henchman of a cheesy comic book villain like the Joker then their preferred pronouns are nowhere to be found.
Has anyone here every lived around evangelicals? You act like identity politics people are the only people who demand you validate their knowing through introspection. How about we deal with trans people the way we deal with Southern Baptists - I am not going to overtly piss on your beliefs as long as you can comparmentalize them so they play well with secular society. I am not going to remind you at every turn in all situations that God doesn't exist, that the New Testament isn't history, that you don't indeed have a "personal relationship with Jesus". But I am going to say no when you demand your beliefs get special rights in policy or special validation other beliefs without evidence don't get. I think of using someone's pronouns the way I think about someone asking me to pray for them - don't have to be a dick to people just because I think their beliefs are stupid and don't have evidence. I am working on a piece about this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M3rMRjJmUVJWRxMeHEpjQBqmTp73mVo3XE0uE4hUJxQ/edit?usp=sharing
Wow. Typical Christian hater, will find anyway possible to bring in Christianity no matter what the topic just so the hater can take a stab at the mean old Christians whom.were it not for the atheists would have forced us all to behave morally and respect others.
Thank the non existent creator we dodged that bullet and arrived were we did ey?
Typical Christian woke logic - if I disbelieve an empirical claim, I must hate the people who make it. If I don't validate your feelings in one area it means I hate you. Doesn't this sound familiar? Religious people are fine with woke epistemology, bur only in service of one set of belief without evidence. Disagreement is oppression. Asking for evidence for claims that seek to create policy is oppression. Sound familiar? I'm no Christian hater. Thankfully most of you compartmentalize your beliefs enough do it plays fine with reality. I just feel about Christianity the way both you and I feel about every other religion.
“One of the painful signs of years of dumbed-down education is how many people are unable to make a coherent argument.
They can vent their emotions, question other people’s motives, make bold assertions, repeat slogans—anything accept reason.”
—Thomas Sowell
As if conservatives don't do those things even more than the left does, and that is saying something! Spend any time around religious evangelicals or listen to the increasingly dominant religious wing of the GOP and you hear woke epistemology around all these issues. Yeah, I have never seen an anti-woke person argue with emotions, questioning people's motives and repeating slogans. The discourse is completely idiotic on both sides.
I have declined to use "preferred pronouns" since the beginning of all this BS. I call it as I see it. It's not meant to be mean or deliberately cruel. I don't think it is healthy to reinforce peoples' cognitive distortions about their "gender identity"; the whole "non-binary they/them" phenomenon has been particularly irrational. No. Just no.
Pronouns go with sex, not gender. Since a man can only be a woman in language, not reality, going along with the lie that a man can be a woman if he says he is forces me to validate his delusion. I refuse to do this, not even to be polite. The jig is up.
Pretending a man is a woman is dangerous for women. If a man thinks he's a woman, therefore he is 'entitled' to pretend, then he does not understand the fact of pregnancy. He's a man. He's not a woman. Simple.
"Hate speech" -- the very term should be rejected.
Accepting that it even exists is a step on the slippery slope to banning it.
Screw zem!
As AOC took the pronouns out of her Twitter bio….pronouns will be officially ‘un-alived’ by Summer
The recognition of pronouns creates co-dependence. Dependency is a form of enabling. Enabling is a form of slavery.
This sounds like woke logic, while I agree with qualms about using pronouns. Enabling is a form of slavery? Talk about concept creep and hyperbole. This sounds like "speech is violence!". Note how woke ways of thinking aren't leftist at all - they are just attached to any kind of moral certainty driven by moral outrage.
I did my best to connect the dots. Creating dependency is nothing new and it’s not complicated.
I can't say this with any absolute certainty, but I am pretty sure that I am on the wrong planet. As soon as my cat - LugNut - and I finish the rocket ship 🚀 we are building in our garage ... we're out of here.
My childhood Jim and I were discussing the dearth of kids playing in all the piles of leaves while walking through my neighborhood recently. When we were little boys, our biggest concern was whether or not we should play marbles in the vacant lot with our neighborhood pals, or ride our bikes to our favorite fishing hole.
But nowadays all the kids are all at home on their computers, trying to figure out which of the 3,942 genders they might be. (If my recent affinity for teapots counts ... then make that 3,943).
It's as if the sun started to rise every morning in the West ... and nobody noticed.
Paddy
Pronouns: she_it
Drawing on the great Yiddish tradition of "shm_ing" a word or phrase, when some years ago LinkedIn recommended indicating personal pronouns I added next to my name "pronouns, shmonouns," but after some time, I entered a minimalist phase and now simply give my name.
Great idea! Let's put forth that schmuck, schlemazel, schlemiel (some would go way out there and ad shlong, schtup, a few other really bad Yiddish words, I'll permit) as "pronouns" and ask if anyone knows how to say "pronouns' in Yiddish? BTW, a bagel place just opened in my upstate town and I was quite surprised. I thought the Left had outlawed overtly Yiddish Jewish food, esp, the carb forward kind~
I prefer to go the classy route and just demand that I be called Your Royal Highness.
Judging by what I read on Xwitter, there are still many people who deny the biological differences between men & women. This is in the context of arguing about firefighters & the horrific LA fires.
So if people like that won't give up, I think that the pronoun brigade won't either.
The fringe element that is constantly trying to invent new ways to identify themselves,for some sort of personal gain, need to get over themselves and shut up. Making up labels and trying to make everyone else use them is unacceptable. Regarding sex, a human being is male or female, there is no other option. Who you choose to love, how you choose to dress, how you choose to modify your body, or how you choose to "identify", cannot change your gender. I believe that labels are created to try to gain some sort of advantage over others. Regarding race, I do not believe there is any such thing. I think that all humans are the same. The physical traits that are currently used to define "race" do not have any validity. These traits are the result of what I call "geographic evolution". Enough.
Thanks, Ed
Biological truth is evidenced in chromosomal tests. "Experienced something" is in the mind. I know this, as the ex-wife of a man who literally, actually, wrote in school forms, legal documents, that he, the father of my sons, was "mother." He was not the custodial parent, as determined by the Kings County Supreme Court in a divorce case costing me, the mother, $40k. In the 1990s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCS5P4wexzs&t=34s
Chromosomes aren't what make people male and female. Bodies organized around the production of large vs small gametes is. https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/understanding-the-sex-binary
There is no "evolving language". There is propaganda.
Evolution as a response to a changing environment. Environment first, then change. What the political Left does is start trying to change language FIRST in an effort to coerce the world to change.
Intriguing conversation with skillful moderation.
I think a better remedy for “hate speech” (however it is defined) is more (and better) speech. I often simply asked students (or administrators) who sad vile, hateful, or simply ignorant things to “help me understand…” Their responses were usually less inane or offensive. Peter seems to do something like this often during these sessions.
The oxymoronic phrase, “the gender you were born with” reflects a rather profound misunderstanding of the difference between sex (biologically determined) and gender (socially construed).
Here is another question that could have been explored: is punishment ever useful/appropriate/or effective? I think not. Although punishment is often the first choice of those least capable of controlling anyone else’s behavior (let alone their own); it is likely to have serious unintended consequences through collateral damage to social relationships. A case in point:
https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2024/06/11/what-i-learned-from-being-charged-with-blasphemy-at-the-air-force-academy/
I sure hope they go away. Pronouns were never meant to be individually configurable.