Most of the commenters clearly watched a very different interaction than did I. If all you watched was the clip in which Vance rightfully called out Zelensky’s rude ingratitude then you need to see the rest of it. I did. Zelensky was rude, petulant, refusing to listen, making faces, constantly fidgeting in his chair. A rude, annoying, emotional toddler treating the leaders of the US, on whom he is dependent, with complete disrespect in what we can call the Nation’s Living Room. He couldn’t even dress respectfully.
Nice gloss on the talking points Trump and Vance had scripted well in advance! That should have been clear when Trump gathered a large audience for discussions between the principals normally done in private.
The only mistakes Zelensky made were 1. not detecting in advance the trip was a trap, a setup, and 2. failing that, when Trump started poking him, not saying, "Get your hands off me, Fatso."
The Trump Vance bad cop worse cop display was a paradigmatic example of narcissists' manipulation, DARVO: deny, accuse, reverse victim-oppressor.
No, you are wrong. Watch the full 45 minutes. Bet you did not. More to the point, Zelensky met with a group of Democrats about an hour or so before his oval office meeting and they apparently encouraged him to push back on Trump. The facts of that day was that Zelensky was only there in the first place to sign the rare earth mineral agreement. It was not even necessary for him to be there in person to do this, but he insisted. And so Trump agreed and hosted him quite graciously. If anything, it was the Democrat cabal that created this mess and Zelensky did what they advised.
Fast forward to Tuesday and Zelensky humbled himself to Trump and sent a letter (which is on X so you can read it for yourself) in which he expressed regret for his behavior and said he will happily sign the minerals treaty. Understand that it is the minerals treaty that both gives the United States a real stake in Ukraine’s continued independence and will provide revenue to Ukraine.
Now let's talk about the part that anti-Trumpers like John here don't want to discuss. This was originally NOT a public meeting for the press. When it started Zelensky asked Trump[/Vance to make it one/ Why would he do this if not with the intention of making a spectacle about it all?
Then again for Stage 3+ TDS victims, Zelensky could have pulled out a knife and stabbed himself and still they'd find some way to say the stabbing was Trumps fault.
I do enjoy reading triggered comments from Stage 3+ TDS victims.
Well considering that the so called peace through strength deal between Russia and the US calls for disarming and the pulling back of Ukranians from the front lines based on trusting Putin with no security guarantees from the US, who wouldn't be petulant when your ally calls you a dictator and says your devastated country started the war with Russia? Petulant? Furiously burning up. Another peace deal like Trump brokered with the taliban is not what Ukraine needs. Duh.
Not a fair characterization of the meeting Peter. Z man wants psycho invader Putin out and Trump wants a deal? What will Putin take next? The US has to make sure Russia does not gain one square foot in this conflict or the dominoes will quickly start to tumble and US soldiers will be involved.
There are two bullies - Trump is the nicer one, and the more powerful one than Putin. I'm sorry but if kissing his arse is necessary to save your country it needs to be done. Remember that other nations have needed to do this to survive - que Poland in WW2.
Munich happened before WW2 - this negotiation is comparable to Yalta or Tehran where great powers were negotiating other nations' borders without their input to conclude WW2. The Poles had to swallow their pride and go along to save sovereignty - eventually (ie 1989) they finally got out from under Soviet control.
Trump creates a situation where there is a DMZ along the line of strategic metals only. Putin could then move his forces to take on Odessa and on to Moldova. No security guarantees at all for Z. If US forces became in involved in 2014, Budapest Accords, then none if this wiuld have ever happened. But it is here upon us.
Zelensky wanted to litigate in front of the cameras? Jeez, are you blind and deaf? The gangster Trump and the mendacious, duplicitous schemer Vance had that drama scripted out well in advance.
If i were Trump, i'd put a close watch on Vance. He's straight out of the court of the Borgias and may very well be plotting his own coup, perhaps a 25th Amendment takedown of Trump. Or he might talk Putin out of some of the KGB's subtle poisons or plutonium tea or Dioxin, if he needs some public drama.
I might think differently if Trump had not installed a Russian stooge at the top of the intelligence community, named an ignoramus of a crooked lawyer as head of our public health system, dismantled the FBI's counterintelligence operation to open the gates wide for Russian, Chinese,and Iranian espionage and islamist terrorism, and cleared out all the experienced military lawyers who might have reminded commanders and subordinates of the 𝘥𝘶𝘵𝘺 to disobey illegal orders.
The one good thing about that display Friday might be the Europeans will realize the U.S. is not to be trusted with anything,at least while the King of Bankruptcy and swindler of his supporters with NFTs, trading cards, "blue sky" stocks, and now his very own "bigger fool" investment, the Trump Coin. (The Melania Coin seems to be a complete bust.)
Allowing Europe to have free healthcare and other social benefits denied to our citizens because we provide their defense is beyond stupid and is ending no matter what the fuck anyone thinks.
The assurance that Jelensky is seeking is that we will send in our troops if Putin breaches the agreement. No American president including Trump and Biden would or could give him that assurance because it’s a de facto NATO membership. People don’t seem to understand what is being negotiated. We have no idea if Putin will stick to any agreement he makes (and he is not to be trusted) so we can’t commit to an armed response by our troops due to his perfidy. We can only say that if it does happen we will continue to supply weapons and ammunition.
It is a very difficult time for our nation where most now have no experience of military service and no desire that their children or grandchildren ever have that experience and yet are forced to struggle with our relationship to an ongoing European war. I have nothing but contempt for those who urge us to support a war with no intention to actually ever have to suffer from the consequences of their urging.
Zelensky has been, up until Trump, treated like the heroic fighter he is.
Given more than the feeble help he has received to date, with all the goddam strings attached as to what are permissible targets, Ukraine would have kicked the Russian bastards out long ago.
Maybe Congress will call out Trump for his traitorous behavior. This is still America, for Christ’s sake!
No doubt Ukraine has some justified grievances -- Holodomor for example; 4 million dead or was that just a statistic? 🤔
But I'm reminded that JFK was once willing to risk WW3 to keep Russian missiles out of Cuba. One might suggest that Russia has a similar "grievance" and objective in mind -- they HAVE explicitly said they didn't want to see the Ukraine as part of NATO. One might suggest that it is the world and the UN itself -- something of a paper and effete tiger -- that needs to be guaranteeing Ukraine's security.
Anyone can say anything they wish, however…note that only a free or semi-free may morally invade a slave state.
Slave-states, like Russia and Red China, do not recognize the rights of their own citizens, as such, they cannot claim the right to invade any free nation, such as, in the case of Ukraine or Taiwan.
And, the UN Charter recognizes free states and slave states as equals at the table. The UN is, and always has been, an abominable organization which has no moral standing.
Russia has a grievance? They’re the country that is a dictatorship.
This bit about their feeling threatened is so much horse dung.
And, to say that the threat of Russian missiles in Cuba against the US somehow justifies Russia’s invasion of a free country, wow, you gotta go some to beat that.
What happened to the concept of supporting free nations? That’s the America I know.
Yes, yes, we all know Castro was an agrarian reformer. The New York Times told us that, so it must be true. The myth of his being Moscow 's agent was Capitalist Imperialist propaganda! Unfortunately, the continued American sanctions have handed the Cuban regime the perfect excuse for its poor performance.
Cuba is not a free country, communist, right? Any free or semi-free country has the right to invade a country that does not respect the rights of its citizens and holds them hostage to dictatorial rule, if it so chooses.
I heard this morning that Ukraine's factories are pumping out drones at an astonishing rate. I'm hoping they are preparing for a huge swarm attack on Moscow with special focus on the Kremlin and neighborhoods favored by the oligarchs. It wouldn't be a supposedly illegal assassination if Putin were "accidentally" killed in an attack on civilians such as those Putin is ordering on Ukraine.
Russia has more bodies to throw at it, if this is just an exercise of stacking up bodies and those with the more bodies to throw at it wins… I guess Ukraine looses everything. Might be a good idea to simply put an end to the blood loss.
Setting aside objections to the discussion Trump, Vance and Zelensky had from a stylistic standpoint, if Zelensky thought that Europe had the manpower, munitions and will to stop Russia from taking his country, he would not have come to the US seeking assistance. Early on Biden had a private phone call with Zelensky in which he promised $1B dollars in aid, during which Zelensky threw a tantrum insisting that the US was not doing enough to help Ukraine fight Russia. Zelensky's discussion with Trump and Vance was more of the same. He wants the US to provide
him security agreements which are not pragmatic, realistic, nor likely to end Russia's war on Ukraine without a negotiated settlement in which Ukraine cedes at least some of the currently Russian occupied Ukraine territory in the eastern part of Ukraine.
The spectacle of disagreement in public media view that apparently distresses so many, is a sideshow compared to the very real need for Zelensky to curry and obtain US assistance in negotiating an end to Ukraine's war with Russia. Once Zelensky agrees to the US rare earth mineral initiative the US will have an unmistakable interest in protecting its economic interests in Ukraine from Russian aggression.
Russia wants to extend its borders westward to the Baltic states and southwestern to the Carpathian and Caucasus mountains, despite what Putin may say to the contrary. Given that Europe is in no position currently to stop Russia, the best play Zelensky has is to reluctantly accept the deal that the US currently has on the table.
People's interpretations of this event rely largely on how much background they have. Apparently this whole saga pissed off Trump & co so much because Zelensky previously agreed to a deal but then refused to go through with it. Then pulled the TV stunt.
Victor D Hanson has a really good analysis of this on YouTube. Zelensky has got away with being forceful with the Europeans and Biden because he's a hero for having the guts to fight. But he's hit the end of the road and just needs to concede to what he can get.
This war should have never happened - if the Ukrainians had simply accepted the loss of Crimea & Donbas, they would actually have been better off for the loss of disloyal populations. But the stubbornness that caused this is visible with their president.
Yes, and the existence of the U.S. can just as accurately be attributed to G. Washington's stubbornness in facing what was then one of the most powerful of the imperialist armies, backed by the dominant navy of the time. We should be grateful for how the rivalry of imperialist powers provoked France to help us out.
But No. What pissed Trump off was Zelensky's refusing to play the role Trump planned for him in the scheme to smear Biden.
Could be, have all citizens slowly back up into Poland and have the soldiers retreat into Poland. Or fight to the last man and go down in history as the peoples who most loved freedom.
I saw the Victor Hanson clip and no doubt insightful and truthful, but it is not he who has to fear Putin. It is not he who is being asked to trust Putin. It is not he who must trust Trump. Doubt I would in Z's situation.
This could be Trump's scenario, russia takes all of Ukraine but honors the metals deal. Ukraine remains intact due to it being a province of Russia called - Ukraine.
This whole episode is a rerun of Poland having to give up their Eastern territories at Yalta. In that case they swallowed their pride and came away with something - enough to eventually rebuild. Zelensky was too impatient, although from the fallout it looks like he has won enough pity from the Europeans to maybe pick up the load from the US.
So the war has killed 100s of thousands on both sides- Trump is trying to broker a peace agreement. Ukraine is attacking Russia with our weapons. Russia is the bad guy in this but Russia has over 700 nuclear missles pointed at the U.S. How would we like Canada attacking the U.S. with Russian or Chinese weapons? A peace needs to be negotiated and Zelensky’s grandstanding did not help - should we spend more billions propping him up? Should Ukraine control our foreign policy?
Vance was painting the nobility of American diplomacy to Zelensky. But the diplomacy painting did not portray nobility; rather, abject capitulation to Putin’s demands and that understandably broke Zelensky’s composure.
Vance could have responded in a quieter measured manner, rather than the two piling on like a manic tag team. It was a disgraceful outburst. It looked like Vance was itching for an opportunity and when it manifested, he went for the throat.
When Putin invaded Ukraine, Zelensky stated that he didn’t want a plane (to escape), he wanted ammunition.
Budapest Accords are a broken contract. Ukraine fulfilled its obligation by giving up its missiles and nuclear warheads while the US and Germany never held up their end which was to defend Ukraine, not with weapons so that they could defend themselves, but defend! As in boots on the ground and air cover. Well for failure to uphold the contract the US and Germany owe in recompense for the missiles and warhesds, in kind or monetary value. How much would it cost to replace Ukraine's nuclear deterence? How about damages due to failure to uphold contract? The rebuilding of Ukraine? In a US court they'd win their case. I say to Ukraine send the US and Germany a bill due and payable.
I really believe there was an enormous cavernous lack of communication between Zelensky and Trump and JD. No one was in control of the direction of the conversation and I blame that on us. Zelensky was pretty emotional and maybe could have been tactfully calmed I don’t know. What a hot mess.
Most of the commenters clearly watched a very different interaction than did I. If all you watched was the clip in which Vance rightfully called out Zelensky’s rude ingratitude then you need to see the rest of it. I did. Zelensky was rude, petulant, refusing to listen, making faces, constantly fidgeting in his chair. A rude, annoying, emotional toddler treating the leaders of the US, on whom he is dependent, with complete disrespect in what we can call the Nation’s Living Room. He couldn’t even dress respectfully.
Nice gloss on the talking points Trump and Vance had scripted well in advance! That should have been clear when Trump gathered a large audience for discussions between the principals normally done in private.
The only mistakes Zelensky made were 1. not detecting in advance the trip was a trap, a setup, and 2. failing that, when Trump started poking him, not saying, "Get your hands off me, Fatso."
The Trump Vance bad cop worse cop display was a paradigmatic example of narcissists' manipulation, DARVO: deny, accuse, reverse victim-oppressor.
No, you are wrong. Watch the full 45 minutes. Bet you did not. More to the point, Zelensky met with a group of Democrats about an hour or so before his oval office meeting and they apparently encouraged him to push back on Trump. The facts of that day was that Zelensky was only there in the first place to sign the rare earth mineral agreement. It was not even necessary for him to be there in person to do this, but he insisted. And so Trump agreed and hosted him quite graciously. If anything, it was the Democrat cabal that created this mess and Zelensky did what they advised.
Fast forward to Tuesday and Zelensky humbled himself to Trump and sent a letter (which is on X so you can read it for yourself) in which he expressed regret for his behavior and said he will happily sign the minerals treaty. Understand that it is the minerals treaty that both gives the United States a real stake in Ukraine’s continued independence and will provide revenue to Ukraine.
Now let's talk about the part that anti-Trumpers like John here don't want to discuss. This was originally NOT a public meeting for the press. When it started Zelensky asked Trump[/Vance to make it one/ Why would he do this if not with the intention of making a spectacle about it all?
Then again for Stage 3+ TDS victims, Zelensky could have pulled out a knife and stabbed himself and still they'd find some way to say the stabbing was Trumps fault.
I do enjoy reading triggered comments from Stage 3+ TDS victims.
Well considering that the so called peace through strength deal between Russia and the US calls for disarming and the pulling back of Ukranians from the front lines based on trusting Putin with no security guarantees from the US, who wouldn't be petulant when your ally calls you a dictator and says your devastated country started the war with Russia? Petulant? Furiously burning up. Another peace deal like Trump brokered with the taliban is not what Ukraine needs. Duh.
How do you manage to listen to these idiots without ripping your own brains out, Peter?
I notice that you don't make an argument with facts, as Peter recommends that we all do.
I notice that you don’t seem to understand what an ‘argument’ is. I wasn’t making one. Just expressing sympathy with Peter.
True. My bad.
So, I will change my claim. Peter, you must be thrilled that people are getting into this discussion with facts.
Not a fair characterization of the meeting Peter. Z man wants psycho invader Putin out and Trump wants a deal? What will Putin take next? The US has to make sure Russia does not gain one square foot in this conflict or the dominoes will quickly start to tumble and US soldiers will be involved.
Thank you, well stated. Trump is acting the bully that he is.
Wrong
There are two bullies - Trump is the nicer one, and the more powerful one than Putin. I'm sorry but if kissing his arse is necessary to save your country it needs to be done. Remember that other nations have needed to do this to survive - que Poland in WW2.
Don't you mean like Czechoslovakia at Munich, 1938? It bought them, what, six months?
Munich happened before WW2 - this negotiation is comparable to Yalta or Tehran where great powers were negotiating other nations' borders without their input to conclude WW2. The Poles had to swallow their pride and go along to save sovereignty - eventually (ie 1989) they finally got out from under Soviet control.
Sounds fucking detestable to me.
Trump creates a situation where there is a DMZ along the line of strategic metals only. Putin could then move his forces to take on Odessa and on to Moldova. No security guarantees at all for Z. If US forces became in involved in 2014, Budapest Accords, then none if this wiuld have ever happened. But it is here upon us.
Zelensky wanted to litigate in front of the cameras? Jeez, are you blind and deaf? The gangster Trump and the mendacious, duplicitous schemer Vance had that drama scripted out well in advance.
If i were Trump, i'd put a close watch on Vance. He's straight out of the court of the Borgias and may very well be plotting his own coup, perhaps a 25th Amendment takedown of Trump. Or he might talk Putin out of some of the KGB's subtle poisons or plutonium tea or Dioxin, if he needs some public drama.
I might think differently if Trump had not installed a Russian stooge at the top of the intelligence community, named an ignoramus of a crooked lawyer as head of our public health system, dismantled the FBI's counterintelligence operation to open the gates wide for Russian, Chinese,and Iranian espionage and islamist terrorism, and cleared out all the experienced military lawyers who might have reminded commanders and subordinates of the 𝘥𝘶𝘵𝘺 to disobey illegal orders.
The one good thing about that display Friday might be the Europeans will realize the U.S. is not to be trusted with anything,at least while the King of Bankruptcy and swindler of his supporters with NFTs, trading cards, "blue sky" stocks, and now his very own "bigger fool" investment, the Trump Coin. (The Melania Coin seems to be a complete bust.)
Please see Douglas Murray’s recent piece in The Spectator:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-maga-movement-is-wrong-on-ukraine/
I didn’t expect such fireworks on this content!
Allowing Europe to have free healthcare and other social benefits denied to our citizens because we provide their defense is beyond stupid and is ending no matter what the fuck anyone thinks.
The assurance that Jelensky is seeking is that we will send in our troops if Putin breaches the agreement. No American president including Trump and Biden would or could give him that assurance because it’s a de facto NATO membership. People don’t seem to understand what is being negotiated. We have no idea if Putin will stick to any agreement he makes (and he is not to be trusted) so we can’t commit to an armed response by our troops due to his perfidy. We can only say that if it does happen we will continue to supply weapons and ammunition.
It is a very difficult time for our nation where most now have no experience of military service and no desire that their children or grandchildren ever have that experience and yet are forced to struggle with our relationship to an ongoing European war. I have nothing but contempt for those who urge us to support a war with no intention to actually ever have to suffer from the consequences of their urging.
Zelensky has been, up until Trump, treated like the heroic fighter he is.
Given more than the feeble help he has received to date, with all the goddam strings attached as to what are permissible targets, Ukraine would have kicked the Russian bastards out long ago.
Maybe Congress will call out Trump for his traitorous behavior. This is still America, for Christ’s sake!
No doubt Ukraine has some justified grievances -- Holodomor for example; 4 million dead or was that just a statistic? 🤔
But I'm reminded that JFK was once willing to risk WW3 to keep Russian missiles out of Cuba. One might suggest that Russia has a similar "grievance" and objective in mind -- they HAVE explicitly said they didn't want to see the Ukraine as part of NATO. One might suggest that it is the world and the UN itself -- something of a paper and effete tiger -- that needs to be guaranteeing Ukraine's security.
Anyone can say anything they wish, however…note that only a free or semi-free may morally invade a slave state.
Slave-states, like Russia and Red China, do not recognize the rights of their own citizens, as such, they cannot claim the right to invade any free nation, such as, in the case of Ukraine or Taiwan.
And, the UN Charter recognizes free states and slave states as equals at the table. The UN is, and always has been, an abominable organization which has no moral standing.
🙄
Russia has a grievance? They’re the country that is a dictatorship.
This bit about their feeling threatened is so much horse dung.
And, to say that the threat of Russian missiles in Cuba against the US somehow justifies Russia’s invasion of a free country, wow, you gotta go some to beat that.
What happened to the concept of supporting free nations? That’s the America I know.
"Supporting free nations?" As in the invasion of Cuba through the Bay of Pigs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
"America's Coup Machine: Destroying Democracy Since 1953"
https://www.alternet.org/2014/04/americas-coup-machine-destroying-democracy-1953
https://x.com/wikileaks/status/907302159473049601
"CIA has interfered in 81 national elections not including coups."
https://x.com/wikileaks/status/854419203201404930
https://academic.oup.com/isq/article/60/2/189/1750842?login=false
https://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/506625913/database-tracks-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections
And now Trump is threatening to do the same to Greenland, Panama, and Canada.
Pots, kettles ...
More like the Normandy Invasion, I'd say.
Yes, yes, we all know Castro was an agrarian reformer. The New York Times told us that, so it must be true. The myth of his being Moscow 's agent was Capitalist Imperialist propaganda! Unfortunately, the continued American sanctions have handed the Cuban regime the perfect excuse for its poor performance.
You might read the links in my post, particularly the bit about how the "CIA has interfered in 81 national elections not including coups."
Cuba is not a free country, communist, right? Any free or semi-free country has the right to invade a country that does not respect the rights of its citizens and holds them hostage to dictatorial rule, if it so chooses.
Steady as she goes, Steersman.
Big LoL Don't recollect seeing that "any free or semi-free country has the right to invade ..." anywhere in the UN Charter ...
Russia could say the same thing about Ukraine, China about Taiwan.
But at least an honourable mention or a bronze star for the nautical reference ... 😉🙂
Just end to the war? Defeat of Russia. Push them back into their own snake pit.
If that’s not possible just keep killing people
I heard this morning that Ukraine's factories are pumping out drones at an astonishing rate. I'm hoping they are preparing for a huge swarm attack on Moscow with special focus on the Kremlin and neighborhoods favored by the oligarchs. It wouldn't be a supposedly illegal assassination if Putin were "accidentally" killed in an attack on civilians such as those Putin is ordering on Ukraine.
Well the world is overpopulated with limited resources. Google 2040
Indeed!
Russia invaded a free country. Wars are avoided by roundly defeating aggressors.
Russia has more bodies to throw at it, if this is just an exercise of stacking up bodies and those with the more bodies to throw at it wins… I guess Ukraine looses everything. Might be a good idea to simply put an end to the blood loss.
Setting aside objections to the discussion Trump, Vance and Zelensky had from a stylistic standpoint, if Zelensky thought that Europe had the manpower, munitions and will to stop Russia from taking his country, he would not have come to the US seeking assistance. Early on Biden had a private phone call with Zelensky in which he promised $1B dollars in aid, during which Zelensky threw a tantrum insisting that the US was not doing enough to help Ukraine fight Russia. Zelensky's discussion with Trump and Vance was more of the same. He wants the US to provide
him security agreements which are not pragmatic, realistic, nor likely to end Russia's war on Ukraine without a negotiated settlement in which Ukraine cedes at least some of the currently Russian occupied Ukraine territory in the eastern part of Ukraine.
The spectacle of disagreement in public media view that apparently distresses so many, is a sideshow compared to the very real need for Zelensky to curry and obtain US assistance in negotiating an end to Ukraine's war with Russia. Once Zelensky agrees to the US rare earth mineral initiative the US will have an unmistakable interest in protecting its economic interests in Ukraine from Russian aggression.
Russia wants to extend its borders westward to the Baltic states and southwestern to the Carpathian and Caucasus mountains, despite what Putin may say to the contrary. Given that Europe is in no position currently to stop Russia, the best play Zelensky has is to reluctantly accept the deal that the US currently has on the table.
People's interpretations of this event rely largely on how much background they have. Apparently this whole saga pissed off Trump & co so much because Zelensky previously agreed to a deal but then refused to go through with it. Then pulled the TV stunt.
Victor D Hanson has a really good analysis of this on YouTube. Zelensky has got away with being forceful with the Europeans and Biden because he's a hero for having the guts to fight. But he's hit the end of the road and just needs to concede to what he can get.
This war should have never happened - if the Ukrainians had simply accepted the loss of Crimea & Donbas, they would actually have been better off for the loss of disloyal populations. But the stubbornness that caused this is visible with their president.
Yes, and the existence of the U.S. can just as accurately be attributed to G. Washington's stubbornness in facing what was then one of the most powerful of the imperialist armies, backed by the dominant navy of the time. We should be grateful for how the rivalry of imperialist powers provoked France to help us out.
But No. What pissed Trump off was Zelensky's refusing to play the role Trump planned for him in the scheme to smear Biden.
Could be, have all citizens slowly back up into Poland and have the soldiers retreat into Poland. Or fight to the last man and go down in history as the peoples who most loved freedom.
I saw the Victor Hanson clip and no doubt insightful and truthful, but it is not he who has to fear Putin. It is not he who is being asked to trust Putin. It is not he who must trust Trump. Doubt I would in Z's situation.
This could be Trump's scenario, russia takes all of Ukraine but honors the metals deal. Ukraine remains intact due to it being a province of Russia called - Ukraine.
This whole episode is a rerun of Poland having to give up their Eastern territories at Yalta. In that case they swallowed their pride and came away with something - enough to eventually rebuild. Zelensky was too impatient, although from the fallout it looks like he has won enough pity from the Europeans to maybe pick up the load from the US.
Hanson long ago took a full draft of Trump Kool-Aid™
So the war has killed 100s of thousands on both sides- Trump is trying to broker a peace agreement. Ukraine is attacking Russia with our weapons. Russia is the bad guy in this but Russia has over 700 nuclear missles pointed at the U.S. How would we like Canada attacking the U.S. with Russian or Chinese weapons? A peace needs to be negotiated and Zelensky’s grandstanding did not help - should we spend more billions propping him up? Should Ukraine control our foreign policy?
Budapest Accords! Why is everyone ignoring them??
BUDAPEST ACCORDS!!!! WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING THEM?
Vance was painting the nobility of American diplomacy to Zelensky. But the diplomacy painting did not portray nobility; rather, abject capitulation to Putin’s demands and that understandably broke Zelensky’s composure.
Vance could have responded in a quieter measured manner, rather than the two piling on like a manic tag team. It was a disgraceful outburst. It looked like Vance was itching for an opportunity and when it manifested, he went for the throat.
When Putin invaded Ukraine, Zelensky stated that he didn’t want a plane (to escape), he wanted ammunition.
Budapest Accords are a broken contract. Ukraine fulfilled its obligation by giving up its missiles and nuclear warheads while the US and Germany never held up their end which was to defend Ukraine, not with weapons so that they could defend themselves, but defend! As in boots on the ground and air cover. Well for failure to uphold the contract the US and Germany owe in recompense for the missiles and warhesds, in kind or monetary value. How much would it cost to replace Ukraine's nuclear deterence? How about damages due to failure to uphold contract? The rebuilding of Ukraine? In a US court they'd win their case. I say to Ukraine send the US and Germany a bill due and payable.
But no we argue whether they owe us!!!!
I really believe there was an enormous cavernous lack of communication between Zelensky and Trump and JD. No one was in control of the direction of the conversation and I blame that on us. Zelensky was pretty emotional and maybe could have been tactfully calmed I don’t know. What a hot mess.